Restart Recharge Podcast

418 Unlocking Innovation: Immersive Learning for Professional Development with Dr. Rachel Arpin

• Forward Edge • Season 4 • Episode 18

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In this episode of Restart Recharge, hosts Matthaeus Huelse and Katie Ritter explore the world of immersive learning and escape rooms with Dr. Rachel Arpin, an expert in instructional design. Dr. Arpin discusses her innovative approaches to creating transformative learning environments, including the use of digital and in-person escape rooms for leadership development. The conversation touches on practical frameworks like the CAR (Challenge, Action, Reward) model, the three-column structure for planning learning activities, and leveraging AI in educational game design. Tune in for insights on fostering engagement and making learning both effective and enjoyable for K-12 educators and adult learners.

Find Dr. Rachel Arpin on LinkedIn
Dr. Rachel Arpin


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Matthaeus Huelse:

Calling all Instructional Coaches, Curriculum Specialists, Teachers on Special Assignment, or whatever they call you. I'm Matthaeus Huelse.

Katie Ritter:

And I'm Katie Ritter. As Instructional Coaches, we are often responsible for our own professional learning and can sometimes feel pretty isolated in our role.

Matthaeus Huelse:

That's why we're here, bridging the gap with a wealth of tips, tricks, and building a community of coaches.

Katie Ritter:

So hit the restart button with us.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Recharge your coaching batteries.

Katie Ritter:

And hopefully you'll leave feeling just a little bit less on your own coaching island.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Welcome back, everyone, to another exciting episode of Restart Recharge. Today, we're unlocking some truly special, quite literally unlocking, some special, cool new ideas and tools in the world of immersive learning experiences and escape rooms. First question, Katie what kind of puzzle solver are you? Are you the person that stays in the back and organizes and tries to understand the bigger picture? Are you the person that takes every key and just tries it out back to back? What's your approach?

Katie Ritter:

Usually my approach to puzzles is being the person to refill the wine glasses.

Matthaeus Huelse:

That is my favorite job in that process.

Katie Ritter:

My husband is the puzzle solver

Rachel Arpin:

Very essential part of the team.

Katie Ritter:

Yeah.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Today we're super excited to welcome Dr. Rachel Arpin, an expert in instructional design with a passion for transformative learning experiences. With a doctorate in organizational leadership and a master's in instructional design, Rachel has over 15 years of experience in education and training. Specializes in using escape rooms for leadership development and team building, creating immersive learning experiences that foster critical thinking and collaboration. Currently she consults at the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center, where she continues to innovate in learning and development. Welcome Rachel.

Katie Ritter:

Welcome.

Rachel Arpin:

Thanks for having me.

Katie Ritter:

Yeah, we are really excited to have you. And this is a cool new spin because you are not our typical guests that we have on the show. So our audience is primarily, I'm sure Matthaeus has already filled you in and tee'd you up with the invitation to join us here. But our audience is primarily instructional coaches who are working in K 12 education spaces. So I'm really excited for them to hear your perspective. working with adult learners because that ultimately is who our audience's audience is. So meta here, but so I think this will be a cool perspective to, to pick your brain about how you go and approach your immersive learning experiences for the adults that you work with. And so that's where I'm going to start it. Could you describe for us, Rachel, what does immersive learning mean to you? What does this mean when we say these immersive learning experiences?

Rachel Arpin:

I think there's a couple layers to that, and by the way, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about this. And when you were talking about your typical audience being in the escape game realm the K 12 were the first early adopters when it came to escape games in the classroom. So I love the energy that they have brought to the escape game and learning spaces, so shout out to your audience. So to your question about describing immersive, I think about it in different kinds of levels. There's the one hand where fully immersive you feel like you're stepping into a whole new space, where maybe you're putting on VR goggles or a headset and you're truly stepping into a different place and learning and experiencing in that way That's one typical aspect of way of describing it But for me, I think the easiest way to entry into that is I feel like I can put myself Into a space where all the other things that are going on in the world can pause and I can focus in on something for a moment and learn. And so maybe that means I step into a story. Maybe it means that I allow myself to just, I'm going to read this book. I'm going to doom scroll on Tik Tok, but I'm learning something, right? So I see all of those as different kinds of facets of immersive experiences.

Katie Ritter:

Yeah, I like that. I like how you positioned it as being able to just focus in the moment. I think we all have so many things going on and it's really easy to come to this space where you were just dealing with, goodness knows what, and your mind is elsewhere. So I like how you position that as being able to actually stop, disconnect from whatever else is going on and focus on whatever it is that you're learning. So with these, as cool as they sound it does sound like maybe a time consuming or complex process to plan an experience like this for your learners. What kind of Pitch to me. Why is it worth it? Why should I spend maybe this extra time designing an immersive learning experience for the people that I have, my learners as opposed to maybe a more interactive, but more sit and get or passive style? What are the benefits? Why is it worth it?

Rachel Arpin:

What stands out to me would be if I were to ask someone to describe to me their favorite holiday memory, or their favorite meal. They might talk about a specific part I ate chicken or something. Or, they're much more likely to say, this is what was happening around me. I was with these people, I remember these smells, I remember the, it was the decorations. So That environment that happens around a memory is much more sticky in someone's brain than necessarily the answer to the question. And that's my whole reason why immersion and immersive experiences make a difference. Because when you can allow people to step in and create a place where it's not just I learned a thing, but it's, I'm part of an environment and a memory where I can think through the experience. And I can remember I was sitting in the room with these two lovely people, this amazing backdrop and, pop in pink coat, that'll be a memory that always stands for me. And that's why I think it's important for us to. Take the time to think about it in terms of that full experience and not just learning objective.

Katie Ritter:

Yeah, I love that. And as soon as you positioned, what was your favorite holiday, my mind immediately went to growing up grandma's house, we're on the stage, we're singing and dancing. Shout out my cousin, Stacey. We're always leading songs and dancing for the whole people. And it was like a thing growing up at my grandparent's house and my family songs on the stairs.

Matthaeus Huelse:

I feel like I have a lot of follow up questions to that, but.

Katie Ritter:

A podcast for a later date.

Matthaeus Huelse:

That may be a different episode.

Rachel Arpin:

Make note, later podcast.

Matthaeus Huelse:

I'll put a pin in that.

Rachel Arpin:

I'll help you ask her questions.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Yeah, how about we do that? I have a question. I think we've talked about it really broadly so far. Can you give us an example of what you've done that would be some sort of experience like that?

Rachel Arpin:

Sure. There are two examples that come to mind, one that I designed, but then one that I was a part of. So the one that I designed was I made this digital escape game to deliver leadership training, and it was for my dissertation. And being in the, especially like in the middle of COVID was when all of it was rolling out. Inviting people to come into a space, and it was, like a Zoom call setting, and then they get into a game, and I created a story for them to step into. And then they engaged with that story, and played this game, and then later on I interviewed them, and they were still describing, oh, I remember when this happened in the game, I remember when that happened in the game. And also the research showed that it was an effective tool to actually teach leadership training. So that's an important part, right? The learning objectives were met but being able to build that space where people stepped into a story and learned something along the way is one example. And we can go into whatever level of detail we want to at that point. One really cool example, it was not specifically, intentionally, necessarily a learning experience. But how we got connected was with Ben, and he has this Roll Your Destiny game at the Ohio Renaissance Festival. And,

Katie Ritter:

Ben is, for listeners, Ben is a coach here at Forward Edge.

Rachel Arpin:

wonderful. Fantastic. I love that game. His creativity and the whole team that have pulled that together, right? The thing for that is, we were given a map, and I'm gonna combine, I played both of the games that were available, so I'm combining them together, but I used a map that got me to explore the entirety of the festival, and pockets of the festival that I hadn't explored before, and I was engaging with characters, I was engaging with Merchants, like people that were selling stuff there, and it created this whole different experience than I normally have had at the festival. And it just spread the joy and spread the learning of what actually is happening there, and it's just one of those examples of, it wasn't intended to teach, probably, but it created this memorable experience that Now I learned more about the different kinds of things that I could buy. It was really dangerous. There were so many things I wanted to buy after that.

Katie Ritter:

God forbid Target has one of these games.

Rachel Arpin:

But it was just really cool to be able to engage in a different way. And it created that environment of let's experience the festival, a renaissance festival, in a different way. I hope that helped explain a little bit because they were two very different examples. One was digital, one was in person, but they were both immersive in their own ways.

Katie Ritter:

I do, I am going to ask you, Rachel, if you don't mind, if you could give us one example from the leadership development in this virtual escape room concept. If you could give us an example of the type of tasks that you were asking people to complete that made it the escape room, but that also connected it to the learning.

Rachel Arpin:

Sure. So the leadership model that I presented had three different stages to it. So I broke the game up into three different phases and Let's say for the first example, imagine yourself looking at a screen that has a conference room. There's a table in the center, there's a couple flip charts on the wall, there's a whiteboard on the side, and you're looking around the room and that there's a file folder on the table. So in the digital space, you'd click on it, and now you have all these resources. And they helped explain the first step of this leadership model was to create a SMART goal. But the way they do the SMART acronym is a little bit different. And so they were able to get exposed to this new way of looking at SMART goals. And then as they explored the room a little bit more, one of the flip charts had a SMART goal puzzle. And it was like a word puzzle where you had to fill in the letters. And then that confirmed, okay, this is the definitions of what these SMART goals are. So as they go in then, so S M A R T and they have the words and then they go to this puzzle and they have to pull that information together on the flip chart. And then the next thing lets them know, okay, the first step of this leadership model is creating a SMART goal and they get a chance to practice that. And then as they explore the room, they get to a whiteboard and it has portfolios on it. And they have to decide, okay, what is the SMART goal for this particular portfolio? And so through this puzzle of finding information, so there was some observation searching, and then word puzzles to pull together all of the concepts. And then they applied that in this other puzzle that was like the portfolio, it was more of like a knowledge check because that's how I tied it back into the learning piece. You got a chance to apply this first step. And then after that, they were able to go to the next part of the game that had the second part of the model.

Katie Ritter:

I love that. Very real ways and I think that a lot of times you acknowledge at the beginning that K 12 space has really owned and taken hold of this idea with the escape rooms, and I think because kids love it and they have so much fun so I love this perspective that you're bringing to it because so do adults, right? Like you talked about in your personal life, right? That you engaged in Ben's renaissance activity where he got to have fun and these are adults that are enjoying it we've done some escape room type things working with some district administrators and they enjoy it and have a good time and it's fun to see them getting competitive about trying to beat the other teams that they're working in teams. So thinking about, Advice that you might give to someone who is going to plan an escape room or this immersive type learning experience for other Adults because I think it's very different than some pitfalls or challenges you might face with kids you got a whole classroom management thing going on there. But are some like heads up or things that you would tell our audience to think about, or be aware of, as they go to plan these types of immersive escape room experiences for learning for adult learners.

Rachel Arpin:

So where my head immediately goes is learning escape game framework. I've been developing over the last couple of years. I'll give the two minute version of it, but this is definitely one of those things that could be a full day workshop on its own. So the learning escape game, picture that being three columns. So under the learning column is where a lot of us have our expertise in, right? The first thing that you do is you identify your objectives. What are the outcomes of this learning game experience. The second part of that is a work breakdown structure. So for each of those objectives, what does someone do to accomplish or to demonstrate that they have achieved that objective? And that becomes really helpful later on when we get into the escape game side of things and the puzzle side of things. So you have your objective, you have your work breakdown structure, and then you have the assessment. How do they know that they did well? And so that's that learning column of the learning escape game framework. The escape column in the center, the first thing on there, and again, these are iterative, so I'm explaining them systematically, but they can build and shift around on each other. It's very agile. In the escape game column, the top part is theme and narrative. What is the story that drives this experience? You can have a whole, Bunch of discrete puzzles that are not connected. They're just there for puzzle sake and there could be learning outcomes, but getting people to step into a theme, getting to step into a narrative helps give them their why. Why am I there? When I hit a puzzle, that's hard. Why am I doing this? Why don't I just give up? Because I gotta finish the story. So the theme and narrative is really helpful. It can also help you in your puzzle selection, like there might be certain puzzles that fit a narrative differently than another, so that's a big part of it. The building block, and at the center, if you're picturing the three columns, and there's three rows, at the very center of all of this is CAR, C A R, which stands for Challenge, Action, Reward. It's the building block of escape games, and really it's the building block of any games, but specifically for escape games, you have a challenge, like you have a lock that you have to get the combination for, or a lock that you need a key for. You have your actions. What do I do? I search the room, I find the key, or I notice that there are symbols, and I count the symbols, and that gives me the combination to the lock, so those are the actions that I'm taking. Once I unlock the lock, I get my reward, R, and the thing that I love about this is first with the reward, that satisfying clunk of a lock opening up and everyone going, yeah,

Katie Ritter:

It's a celebration. No one even really cares what's inside the box. They just care they unlocked it a lot

Rachel Arpin:

That is reward enough! Then you do also get what's in the box, which is lovely. And that goes into the final part of the escape column is the connections. What does it connect you to? It's usually that leads you to the next challenge, or it leads you to winning the game. So the narrative, CAR, challenge, action, reward, and then connections are that escape part of this. And just as a little side note, the reason I love Car Challenge Action Reward as being a support for learning is It's exactly how we learn. We have a challenge. We have something that we need to learn. We have actions, which are the steps that we take to learn it. So maybe we have to do some reading. We have to search to find information. We get to practice it. And then the reward is the feedback. If you get it, you get the positive feedback and you move on. If you don't get it, you have that feedback of, nope, try again. So it's this built in learning system into the building blocks of escape games, which is why I love it. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Cause it is so intimidating, as a teacher as someone that does professional development with adults. What about some like very concrete things that you might want to keep in mind? For example, do you want people to work together as opposed to work against each other? Do you want certain groups in that thing? Or do you want this to be everybody on their own? How about some of the logistic components there?

Rachel Arpin:

Sure, so all of those are possibilities, and I think that's the great thing about trying to find what gets you to your learning outcomes, right? There, there can be value in competition. Some people go, I want to finish faster than the other person, or our team's going to finish before that team. That can be very motivating for the people that are doing well. It can be very demotivating for the people that are not doing well. So knowing your audience is really key in that. I recently led an escape game session. A game that I did not design, but I used the game as a way we were going to launch it into some other learning and connecting it to mission vision values kind of thing. And as soon as there were some people that were getting super far behind, they started getting demotivated. So I had to find ways to let them know they weren't as far behind as they thought they were, so that they'd get motivated back in. So competition can be helpful, it can also be hurtful. I love collaboration. So in that same game, I broke teams up into two, and they each had half of the game, and it had to come together for the final puzzle. So knowing that there was eventually going to be this collaboration part helped. And then, one group, they had, they were really struggling, so the first group that finished their part first came over and started helping them out too, so that collaboration and cooperative approach to games can be very beneficial.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Interesting. Do you think that storylines should be rooted in the actual thing that you're learning? Because you're working with professionals, right? If I were to do this as a coach with teachers, do I build storylines that are rooted in a school with what the position is? Or do I make this something fantastical, crazy and just, distract them from the reality of things?

Rachel Arpin:

Gosh, there's benefits in doing both. If your audience is very pragmatic, like if they're on like the D and the C of DISC kind of folks keeping things In a very pragmatic, I can link it directly to your job. There's no question that this is a value added activity. If your audience needs that kind of approach, absolutely do that. And then you'll have audiences that love the thought of stepping out and disappearing into fantasy. Give them the unicorns and the rainbows and they will thrive. The challenge is if you have those mixed groups, like you have a little bit of both. And so being able to give people a story that they can realistically step into and say, okay, we're adults here, and we're at work, but I can suspend reality just enough to get in on this. I'll give you a little bit of a chance. The big thing with that is, especially if you have folks that you're not sure if they're gonna be hesitant or not at first, give them a storyline and a narrative, and then give them a couple quick wins. Because if they get quick wins and they solve things up front, they're going to feel smart, they're going to feel energized. And then when they hit a challenge, they're going to be much more likely to push through. Because they'll be like, wait no, I've already got this. I told you I can do this. I'm going to keep going because I've already won once. I can keep winning.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Oh, that's a hundred percent accurate. I, that, that would, that also would follow with what I would experience too. Cause if you make it too hard for me in the beginning, I'm not going to stick with it. And I'm going to start throwing my hands up in the air.

Katie Ritter:

I'm going to go get a glass of wine.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Oh, there you go.

Katie Ritter:

I know I'm picturing like elementary, middle school. You could give them like whatever story you wanted. Secondary and admin.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Yeah, you probably need to.

Katie Ritter:

Very practical.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Oh, if you can get off a wine with that, even better. Can I ask one more little logistical question, which I think is on people's minds. When you think about escape rooms and things like that, it's the time management component, right? Because there is this big question mark of, can I get this done in time? And do you have any advice on how I can maybe make this easier or more feasible for myself?

Rachel Arpin:

Sure, so a couple things come to mind. I've seen really effective games happen in 15 minutes. So you don't have to do the standard escape in an hour kind of thing. And if you have a lot of things that you want to cover, But you need to keep it to your 10 15 minutes. Do like you would a curriculum and modularize it. And you have now maybe four smaller 15 minute games that you can spread out over time, but you have very concrete, manageable windows of time. That can even help with scaffolding learning later on. A big part of it is playtesting. So if you're not sure how long your game is going to take, make sure people are playtesting it. Because something that you think might make complete sense could be a whole other language to someone else. And something that took you 2 minutes to solve might take someone else 15 minutes to solve. So playtesting it with a couple different audiences is really key in that. And it's, I would say it's the hardest part to do because it's really easy to be like, okay, I built it, let's go.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Yeah.

Katie Ritter:

Yeah, that's a great reminder. Rachel, I'm also curious, how has AI impacted your approach to designing games?

Rachel Arpin:

So it's funny. I hope this translates well. So I'm an only child. I grew up talking to my stuffed animals to brainstorm and come up with ideas and play games, right? Talking to AI actually has been this like, built in imaginary friend, right?

Katie Ritter:

Yeah, definitely translates.

Rachel Arpin:

Okay, good. But now I actually get valuable feedback instead of just what I'm thinking. And I love that AI is a place that I can go and say, I have an idea, ask me questions about this. And I can have that back and forth with Claude or with ChatGPT. Sometimes what I'll do is I will I learned this from my colleague, Dr. James Colquitt, that I will just dictate going to like word or note and just dictate thoughts and just let them come out and then I'll throw that into AI and say, can you organize these thoughts and then ask me questions about this? And. We also did that. He and I did this for a game. We plugged in rules of a card game that existed and we said, Hey, we're very interested in if this could be applied to some other topic. How would you adjust the rules to make it about this other topic? And so we were able to, it needed work, right? It needed to be fixed, but it was a really nice launching point of saying I have this idea Now, work with me and come up with some mechanics or come up with some ways to translate this to this learning topic that I want. Instead of having to come up with it out of the blue.

Katie Ritter:

Exactly. And I love your framework because as you were describing this framework, I very much could see myself because I enjoy these types of experience. I enjoy participating. I've enjoyed when I facilitated. It's a great time. When I go to think about doing it back to my initial question, it's It feels a little bit overwhelming to try to make this really awesome experience happen and to design that. But when you described your framework, I'm like, okay, I could work with that. And that feels like it just got me so much further down the line to be able to do this. But then when I think about the context of taking that framework, giving that framework, to AI to help you think about it or filling it out first, right? And then giving that to AI and I'm like, okay, now I really feel like I can I have one leg up even further with this creative idea because I would consider myself a creative person, but I, when I go to think of like a storyline and games that match, I'm like, that is not my, Strength in the way that it is some other people. It sounds like you, but now I feel like that could really make it possible for a lot more people, right? For some of our listeners who might be putting yourself in the same bucket that I'm putting myself in, I feel like now we could do it. And it's a lot more approachable, even if you don't have that super creative arm to have a theme and the games and the titles and the fun stuff to go with it. You bring the knowledge of what you're trying to accomplish. You bring that background on your audience and that experience, so leverage some of these other tools that can help you close that gap and get it across the finish line there.

Matthaeus Huelse:

And I wholeheartedly believe that I think if you had, if you were given six months of time to come up with this, you would come up with the coolest ideas too. I think all of us would. I think it's just a matter of, I don't have the time to really sit down and plan this, but with AI, I can ideate together and I will recognize a good idea. And that's, I think, what matters. That's where our expertise comes in.

Katie Ritter:

Yeah. I do love that framework. That was super helpful.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Listeners, we're going to take a really quick commercial break and then we'll be right back with Rachel and our top three tips.

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Katie Ritter:

Alright, welcome back listeners. We are here talking with Dr. Rachel Arpin about all immersive learning experiences and escape rooms for our adult learners that we serve as coaches and supports in our school. Rachel, you've given us so many amazing ideas. I'm excited, personally, with some personal initiatives that I have, that I shared with you on the break to put some of this into action. And we wrap up every episode So what are the top three tips that you would give to our audience when they are thinking about approaching, planning, and implementing immersive learning experiences and maybe even more specifically escape room type ideas?

Rachel Arpin:

Sure, and thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful. I think my first tip is just a reiteration of that learning escape game framework. We talked about the learning column with objectives, work breakdown, structure, and assessment. We talked about the escape column with the narrative. Challenge, Action, Reward, and Connections. The third column of that is pre game, and post game considerations. And I think that's something that's really important, especially linking it into the whole immersion. Pre game, how are you helping people prepare for this. Is there content that they need up front or how do you even get them into the mindset of play? That's really helpful and important so that by the time they get to the game, they're ready to go. And like for a digital game, is there a tutorial that they need to do so they understand how to engage? So that pre game, preparing for the game, and a post game debrief is so critical. Research shows that the games are great, And they're a great way to engage people and thinking in different kinds of ways, but the post game debrief is where the learning really happens. So I would say make sure whatever you can do to build that into your time is critical. I don't know if that counts as one tip.

Katie Ritter:

We'll take more. We make exceptions. We'll take more.

Rachel Arpin:

Perfect. Playtesting is my second, then. Make sure that whatever you make, you playtest it. It's not the most fun thing to do, and it's so hard to get feedback on something you've created because it's near and dear to your heart, and why did they not get it? But it's so important to understand why someone else doesn't get what's in your brain. And then I think the last tip is go out and make something. Make crap. Make a bad game, go out there and do it, try it, make a puzzle. Even if you make only a challenge action reward unit, like an individual car just get out there and start playing with things, and then as you do that, and you're playing games, and you're building on That'll just build that skill set and so I highly recommend go out and make crap and get better.

Matthaeus Huelse:

I love that. I love that. We always post the top three tips and I just look forward to us writing make crap as tip number three. I'm super excited. Never seen this before. Super great.

Katie Ritter:

I love that. Thank you so much. I truly am inspired myself and looking forward to putting some of this into action.

Matthaeus Huelse:

And listeners, we hope you got inspired too. And I think we gave you something really exciting to give you some good ideas and get you started with some escape rooms. Rachel, thank you so much for being here. How can people find you on social media?

Rachel Arpin:

If you look up Rachel Arpin EDD on LinkedIn, usually I'm the first one to pop up and that's the best way to get in touch with me.

Katie Ritter:

Great. That is excellent. And ARPIN is A R P I N, just to spell that out for anyone listening and not looking at the, your phones right now, which if you're driving, hope you're not.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Oh yeah, please don't. All right. Thank you listeners.

Katie Ritter:

Your special PSA from Katie and Matthaeus.

Matthaeus Huelse:

Don't, Don't read and drive. Don't read and drive. That's it. Okay. Needed to get this together. All right. Thank you so much again. Thank you listeners for being here. I hope you had something exciting out of this and yeah, I hope you all have a great, fantastic day. Thanks for spending time with us today. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with an educator friend.

Katie Ritter:

And connect with us on social media at rrcoachcast to let us know what you thought of the episode and what topics you want us to discuss next.

Matthaeus Huelse:

New episodes drop every other Tuesday. Be sure to subscribe to Restart Recharge wherever you listen to podcasts.

Katie Ritter:

So press the restart button,

Matthaeus Huelse:

recharge your coaching batteries, and leave feeling equipped and inspired to coach fearlessly with the Restart Recharge podcast,

Katie Ritter:

a Tech Coach Collective.

Matthaeus Huelse:

With a doctorate in organizational leadership and a master's in instructional design, Rachel has over 15 years of experience in education and training. Oh, I got really German for a second. I got back into my German roots.

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Dr. Katie Ritter

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Matthäus Huelse

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